04 02 2011
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Why we're not porting K2 to Joomla 1.6 (just yet), the life cycle of a release, Nooku Server and more

Why we're not porting K2 to Joomla 1.6 (just yet), the life cycle of a release, Nooku Server and more

IMPORTANT NOTICE: A poll is now setup in the K2 Community for people to voice their opinion more properly

First, some facts...

Joomla 1.6's life cycle is very short. Just 6 months. By July 2011, the Joomla team will end development and proceed to releasing Joomla v1.7.

This is very disturbing for many big projects like K2, considering all the big changes that 1.6 has introduced in its framework (language files, content elements, classes, functions, ACL etc. etc.) and the unnecessary workload added (see language files going back to Joomla 1.0 days), especially for free extensions like K2, Virtuemart and many more...

Many developers have expressed doubts about 1.6. Jen Kramer also nailed it in her recent blog post: Joomla 1.6 and Beyond: Should I upgrade? Should I build my new sites in it?

So did Andy Miller of RocketTheme fame on: Should I upgrade to Joomla 1.6?

Back to the title of this post...

Why we're not porting K2 for Joomla 1.6 (just yet)...

First and foremost... What does 1.6 bring to Joomla end users aside the new version number? It brings ACL (damn acronyms), nested level categories for core Joomla articles (but just that, don't expect tags, comments or other integrated stuff), sub-template overrides, it's removed the useful Polls component (but the VERY useful Weblinks and Newsfeeds components are still there - please don't laugh)... For real...

Let's see what K2 and Joomla 1.5 have compared to 1.6. Well, it's like a whole new CMS! But there's no ACL, some will say... Ok then, for the 100 people of the 10 million who're gonna download 1.6 in the coming months, and actually make use of the ACL... guys, there's a solution for you in K2 and J1.5. You probably don't need to re-do your entire site (which costs money and time)...

Why? Let's face it... when you give access to your backend, you give it to people you trust, your close partners. Joomla 1.5's ACL is pretty good for that. "Managers" for content writers and "admins"/"super admins" for a couple of people who control the site. It's worked amazingly well for years now... For 99,999% of people, ACL is not required in the backend if you think about it.

But you'll probably need ACL for the frontend and control who gets to see (or input) what. If you're using K2, it's got you covered already. You provide "frontend editing access", which allows people to input/edit content in your site with a proper ACL system provided by K2... A "done deal" for many popular Joomla sites like Gazzetta.gr or even the Joomla Magazine.

Now that 1.6 is out and to further prove our point on "practical ACL", we plan to roll either a new component or a system plugin to allow Joomla 1.5 and K2 users to control even "content viewing" in the frontend for guests or registered users. Maybe we'll even work on a cool solution for the backend of Joomla 1.5 as well...

Still not convinced? Here are some questions to consider:

- How many popular extensions are available or will be available for 1.6 until 1.6 development is ceased for 1.7... We see many big ones not even 1.5 native up until now (cough, VM, cough). Support for 1.6 is probably a joke, not cause the extension dev is not capable of the conversion, but because 6 months are a small timeframe for FREE extensions, maintained by people for no compensation in their FREE time.

- How many extensions would practically make use of an ACL system. Most that require ACL already got it built in (see K2 or forum components). You probably don't need ACL for Polls or Weblinks, right?

- Would you invest money in developing a site now based on 1.6 and see it become obsolete by July 2011? If 1.6 changed so much from 1.5, why won't 1.7 do the same?

 

What about supporting Joomla 1.6 in general?

There's no doubt for that. We will support Joomla 1.6 for our commercial and free (smaller) extensions, but it's because they're small and therefore easy to convert/maintain. I built the 1.6 version of Simple Image Gallery v2.0 in just one day...

 

So what next?

We go on with 1.5 for K2. It's a solid platform to develop websites and with the right combination of extensions, it can drive websites that are visited by millions of people per month, when Drupal or Wordpress would sweat the least (without a massive server cluster that is, haha)...

But there is something really new coming along, something that does redefine many elements for developers, which in turn would benefit end-users. Enter "Nooku Server"!

Nooku Server is a Joomla 1.5 distribution, slimmed down from legacy code, better caching, packaged with the powerful Nooku framework, from the man who already built the Joomla 1.5 framework. We see Nooku Server, we see what amazing extensions people have built for Nooku and Joomla 1.5 (see NinjaBoard, Anahita etc.) and we believe there is a better ecosystem for K2 already available.

We already plan the migration of our SMF forum to Ninjaboard and maybe the new site is powered by Nooku Server by the end of the month. The Nooku Server approach is far more realistic, as a) does not demand any code change to 1.5 extensions and b) offers a powerful framework if you want to extend programming to new levels. And I hear something will be arranged for ACL as well.

Sorry folks, but unless something significantly changes on how Joomla perceives the life cycle of a version, we do not plan to port K2 to Joomla 1.6. It's wasted time for a product which will last 6 months. It will be at least 40 days down the drain for us.

I know it's a tough decision, but websites are not desktops to release a new major version every 6 months, like Ubuntu does... Websites take time to build... Proper websites (to which 1.6 features are targetted ;) ) take from 30 to 90 days to build...

What's your say? ;)

You can leave a comment or place your vote in the poll I created regarding K2 and Joomla 1.6 in the K2 Community website: http://community.getk2.org/#pollFor16

 

UPDATES

1. There seems to be a "response" for the Joomla team. Kind of bashes extension devs in my opinion, which is very unfair, especially to other projects who are not even now native to J!1.5 but have a huge user base... K2 is 100% native to Joomla 1.5 and can easily be ported to 1.6 in a relaxed timeframe of a month. Other projects need to re-write everything. Our decision however is based on "practical" terms and features, not version numbers.

2. Nooku Server is now available to download and test. It's Joomla 1.5, slimmed down, legacy code out, junk stuff out, includes the powerful Nooku framework, amazingly fast admin backend and a lot more... Since this is a release for testing, the Nooku team allows you to connect to their dev server and download the release via SVN. But to make life easier, I created an automated script that will grab the latest SVN snapshot and create a distribution ready to be installed. Grab Nooku Server 0.7 alpha here: http://nuevvo.com/nookuserver/

3. I see people divided in 2 groups already. So to be fair to everyone, a poll is now setup in the K2 Community for people to voice their opinion more properly.

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96 comments

  • JoomFlix JoomFlix 04 Feb 2011
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    This is exactly what I suspected and feared would happen. I was involved with the conversion of a very large project and it was a nightmare. Finally some one says the obvious, 10 out of a million will actually use this new ACL. And if major comps. like k2 don't support it, whats the point?

    Lucky for me my clients could not care less about releases, ACL, etc. I've been able to give them what they need with the current toolset and customizations as requird.


  • intercisa intercisa 04 Feb 2011
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    @Fotis You are right about Nooku and distros. I do not want to say any inappropriate words about it. I saw how exciting thing could do with it such as the police departments in Belgium or Netherlands if I am not mistaken. So it's good to see how others develop and think further the Joomla

    I would like to point only to that maybe not so many end users and Joomla website managers need to use it and as Kai wrote the beauty in K2 is the easy publication tools, that is why you are genius at JoomlaWorks. You know what is the most week part of the Joomla

    In 2010 and today we could not and still can not compete without K2 CCK as webmasters or internet saas proveders 'cos the other CMS systems and blog system go far further than the core Joomla.

    Thank you again!


  • AndreazArt AndreazArt 04 Feb 2011
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    Oh man. This is actually awful news for me. I understand your decision, but I was really looking to make a big upgrade for my community/news website and backend ACL is really important for me. Although my website isn't using K2 yet, I really want to switch to K2, because I need more andvanced blogging system and with J 1.6 ACL everything would have worked out perfectly... Now I'm kinda lost here.

  • unworthyslave unworthyslave 04 Feb 2011
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    @Fotis, so you're saying that rewriting part of the core framework to include acl, nested categories, and automated updates is not that much work and didn't take that long? Then explain to me why joomlaworks is complaining about how much work it would be to get k2 to 1.6? Come on man...be reasonable.

  • Fotis Evangelou Fotis Evangelou 04 Feb 2011
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    @unworthyslave I'm saying that 1.6 is not a big from 1.5 in end-user features, it surely did not maintain good backwards compatibility (e.g. language and installation files) and it surely did not take 3 years to develop...

  • intercisa intercisa 04 Feb 2011
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    +1 @unworthyslave, maybe that was the original plan at JDT

    +1! @nikosdion, many people know how rough was the road to 1.6 especially you. We could see how many times you had to look into the core Joomla 1.6 betas, 'bos its API was changed in every beta releases. KUDOS to you Niko, I think you give a good example for other developers and maybe sometimes you could blow up when you have to do unnecessary work. Cheer up!

    I wish it would be true and 3PDs could agree with it and start to upgrade extensions to 1.6 or 1.7 but not waiting until 1.8 came out.


  • unworthyslave unworthyslave 04 Feb 2011
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    @Fotis, so you are saying that as soon as 1.5 came out, 1.6 was ready, but it was just stalled for 3 years?.....

  • Fotis Evangelou Fotis Evangelou 04 Feb 2011
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    @intercisa Like I said, until a few things change for 1.6, there is no reason to support it. If 1.7 brings news stuff in, that won't be already provided by K2, we will port K2 for 1.7.

    Nooku Server is built by the man who brought J1.5. So it's not for "professionals". It's actually a better approach to content management compared to what 1.6 is now...


  • Fotis Evangelou Fotis Evangelou 04 Feb 2011
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    @unworthyslave 1.6 didn't take 3 years to develop, it's was stalled for 3 years...

  • drstonyhills drstonyhills 04 Feb 2011
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    +1! @nikosdion I might just as well drop developing Joomla extensions and start doing less laborious tasks, like building the Great Pyramid with my bare hands...

  • intercisa intercisa 04 Feb 2011
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    Dear JoomlaWorks,

    Thank you Fotis and the whole JoomlaWork for K2. It gives a new life to Joomla 1.5. Without doubt. I was so sad reading this official announcement but as you wrote this is a not commercial component and you should to consider a long life business plan as you develop it as volunteer. I suppose that many of us can understand you will not upgrade K2 to 1.6.

    I have only one question. As we know the Joomla 1.7 will contain many bug fixes and as Andrew Eddy wrote the Bowerbird (codame for the next version) will focus only few thing.
    These are: 1. Super Search, 2. Tag, You’re It, and 3. Lost and Found search engine.

    So, as I see the 1.7 will not give us so much frontend features and the core develeopment teem has an arrangement keep improving Joomla as a framework and cut down the unnecessary features.

    What do you think about it? Are you going to prepare K2 CCK to Joomla 1.7 seriously or will you wait until Joomla 1.8 at early 2012 just like Jen Kramer.

    Please think about it again with your team members and give us a decent respond and we will be able to manage our business model regarding to K2.

    Personally, I would die to wait for K2 CCK until 2012...

    http://www.joomla.org/announcements/general-news/5321-rediscover-content-the-vision-for-next-years-release.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.joomla.org/announcements/general-news/5321-rediscover-content-the-...

    Ps. The Nooku system, Nooku server and other Joomla contribution such as Molajoo sounds exciting, but please consider that there are more non-professional Joomla users and professional Joomla webmasters who have not got developer skills and maybe are not interested in those distros so much.
    Some of the strongest features of K2 are the simple usability, easy to use features, frontend editor (clients admire it so much!) and off corse the voluntary, etc.

    Thank you again and best regards,
    Robert from Hungary (EU)


  • unworthyslave unworthyslave 04 Feb 2011
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    "If 1.6 changed so much from 1.5, why won't 1.7 do the same?"

    Because Joomla has already stated that they won't. Also 1.6 took 3 years to develop and has major structural changes, common sense tells you that with a 6 month release cycle the changes will be smaller and more manageable. The core developers from what I have read have stated this as well.

    Joomla 1.5 to 1.6 is the last migration (at least for quite some time!). From here on out it is smooth sailing for developers and site managers alike.


  • Torettox84 Torettox84 04 Feb 2011
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    I'm really looking forward to upgrading our 40+ sites every single month, in order to stop management from thinking we're using an "obsolete CMS". </sarcasm>

    Seriously, this is a pain in the ass. I probably won't be able to convince management that "upgrading is bad", but they'll be pissed if I tell them we need to do major upgrades every 6 months. Either way, I'm screwed ;-)


  • nikosdion nikosdion 04 Feb 2011
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    Even on desktops, a 6 month release cycle is a PITA. Ask me how many times I have bricked a PC when a new version of a Linux distro came out, I installed it and -suddenly- nothing would work. Or important things which used to work stopped working and some less important things which didn't work now worked fine. In fact, the reason I'm not using Linux as my primary OS anymore is that I was sick of seeing suspend come and go every 6 months together with support for my webcam, Skype, you-name-it. And that was just my "entertainment" PC. If this happens on my site, that very spot on the 'net which provides me with the money to live, that would be disastrous.

    I wouldn't be against a 6 month Joomla release schedule IF (BIG IF) the API was stabilized among incremental releases. Because if I'm going to get through the same procedure to get my extensions from 1.6 to 1.7, I might just as well drop developing Joomla extensions and start doing less laborious tasks, like building the Great Pyramid with my bare hands...


  • pmichelazzo pmichelazzo 04 Feb 2011
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    This short lifecycle can leave some developers to work with others CMS tools. IMHO nobody developing great extensions can run in the same step. Joomla have a team to make new versions and developers work alone or with small teams. Also, why we need this crazy lifecycle? Is some kind of fear about others platforms to catch the wasted time or just a whim?

    I'm with you stoping all things to 1.6 version, including training courses. Is better to have focus in a stable version and not in a stillborn.


  • woomaa woomaa 04 Feb 2011
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    It's sad but true!

    I've been waitin' for 1.6 but when it came Iwas shocked. ACL and new language files and it's all?


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